Curse

Shanaeri Rynale · Dec 08, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Because then everyone would do it, leading to huge inflation of prices and rending the pleasure gained from saving up or farming something useless.

Darkobra · Dec 08, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

You make Anet's EULA sound like it is worth more than that $49 box of a "game".

Illegal? Don't think so.

Arenanet is a company. You legally signed the contract. You agree to said contract every time you play the game. If you fail to follow this contract, they can cut you off and there's nothing you can do about it. Doesn't matter how much you paid for a game, it just matters that you signed a company's contract and agreed to follow it. Is it that hard to understand? If it is, I can dumb it down.

RTSFirebat · Dec 08, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

The Key word here is eBay

Why report eBay Gold sellers to A.net?

You should just report them directly to eBay, as its eBay who has the power to remove them from their site, not A.net.

The most A.net will do is report it to eBay, which is what you should have done in the first place.

Easy....

Marvel M · Dec 08, 2006, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Because then everyone would do it, leading to huge inflation of prices and rending the pleasure gained from saving up or farming something useless.

I would disagree - Mainly because you have different frame of mindsets for player base.

General Mindset: IMO only.

A. Will spend any amount of money to own rare items and dress up. (Know how to make Gold - No Need to buy)

B. Will rarely sell to players and keep bare minimum gold on their account - These players normally earn gold as they need it. (Usually just plays the game not concerned about Ebay or Gold Buyers)

C. Will spend any amount of money to own rare items and likes to dress up but rarely have the gold to do it. (Would be Tempting to buy Gold)

Just my thoughts on things. - Don't get me wrong I'm sure GW will not sell gold of any type I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me if they did from a business sense. I know sounds a little Oxymoronic if that's a word.

Ninna · Dec 08, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

Anyway, go ask Blizzard why they never stopped Ebay sellers... They have over 6 years experience in this.

SOE (Everquest) has even more experience

SOE did succesfully stop ebay sales - but that was years ago
http://news.com.com/2100-1017-251654.html

Quote:

Yahoo and eBay have banned from their auctions this month (Jan 2001) the sale of virtual-world characters and goods found on popular online game EverQuest, a computer generated world where tens of thousands of human players don alter egos to duel, explore and war with one another.

its a many headed hydra and all online games face it

aron searle · Dec 08, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

Arenanet is a company. You legally signed the contract. You agree to said contract every time you play the game. If you fail to follow this contract, they can cut you off and there's nothing you can do about it. Doesn't matter how much you paid for a game, it just matters that you signed a company's contract and agreed to follow it. Is it that hard to understand? If it is, I can dumb it down..

Yes i think you should dumb it down to your own level

Ebay did not sign the EULA so whilst you can be banned, i dont think EBAY are quite breaking the law, which was the point.

lyra_song · Dec 08, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Yes i think you should dumb it down to your own level

Ebay did not sign the EULA so whilst you can be banned, i dont think EBAY are quite breaking the law, which was the point.

One thing is this.

eBay cares alot about SCAMMING on eBay.

The best way, IMO, for Arenanet to stop farmers who sell on ebay, is to just shut down accounts that use eBay (as ive posted before) by using eBay.

------------------
Scenario.

Arenanet creates a new account.

Anet account checks out potential eBay seller accounts on eBay.

Anet buys eBay gold.

Anet then meets the seller in game.

They then check ALL accounts that ever made contact with the seller account.

They trace the source of funds.

They freeze all accounts associated with large transfer of in game cash, and accounts associated with THOSE accounts.

So then.

Anet complains to eBay that seller is scamming.

------------------------

But thats just my imagination running amuck.

Thalion Galad · Dec 08, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvel M

As horrible as Gold Selling is via Ebay. I'm surprize that GW hasn't considered selling gold via their store. If they offer it cheap enough they could put Ebay sellers out of business. Don't get me wrong I understand this would infuriate some player base - but if gold is being sold on Ebay and people are buying then why shouldn't GW make a profit from it.

Just my thoughts - be it good or bad..

Take Care..

Hi all

i'm a businness men myself and i thouth about that to many times and i think that anet is doing that allready...

Just bouth some days ago the tree pvp packs

1135 skills for 117.97€
if i got the skills in the normal away i need something about 1 000 000 k to get them (skill trainers and skill cap)

now i ask
Anet nerfed farming cause the online money sellers are making profit or cause they (anet) is selling the money via satelite company's?

Off topic:
Started 3 days ago with my (PR) monk the away up in Elona from Kamadan to the vortex, started with 0gp in my pocket and arrived on the vortex with only 20k just doing primary quests...

Poor poor new player's i feel sorry for them...

dont mind gramma i'm portuguese... try write my reply in portuguese...

Rera · Dec 08, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvel M

As horrible as Gold Selling is via Ebay. I'm surprize that GW hasn't considered selling gold via their store. If they offer it cheap enough they could put Ebay sellers out of business. Don't get me wrong I understand this would infuriate some player base - but if gold is being sold on Ebay and people are buying then why shouldn't GW make a profit from it.

This idea is suggested periodically in discussions like this, but given Anet's current policy it simply wouldn't be smart politically. Selling gold in their online store is likely to spawn a public relations shitstorm that they might never dig themselves out from.

I don't know eBay's policies, and I have no doubt that they can shut down whatever auction they want, for whatever reason, but at the moment they simply don't have any incentive to do so unless they are legally obligated. But even assuming that eBay removed all gold auctions from their site, gold sellers are still free to sell gold from their own websites, and shutting *those* down is, I imagine, essentially impossible.

The best way to stop a certain behavior is to remove the incentive to do it. There are two incentives to consider here: the incentive to sell gold, and the incentive to buy it. The incentives to sell gold is both obvious and difficult to counteract, but I think the incentive to buy gold might be easier for Anet to manipulate.

Sir Skullcrasher · Dec 08, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Couldn't Ebay just shut down all those sellers who is selling gold for real money? I mean, they don't need reason to do so since selling in-game product for real profits is against the EULA and I'm sure A-Net probably let Ebay know ahead of time that it's illegal?

Chief · Dec 08, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Let me provide some details and education here based on reading NCSoft/PlayNC and eBay Policies.

First, we all know Arenanet is a wholly-owned subsidiary of NCSoft Corporation. Furthermore, we are also quite aware of the Guild Wars/PlayNC end user license agreements (EULAs). http://www.plaync.com/help/eula_gw.html or http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...-agreement.php

Quote:

#7. …You may not sell or auction any Game(s) accounts, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material, nor may you assist others in doing so.

What you may not know is the eBay VeRO program. http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...nded-item.html

Quote:

The Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program lets intellectual property rights owners request the removal of listings on eBay that offer items or contain materials that infringe on their rights. This helps protect members of the eBay community from purchasing items that may be counterfeit or otherwise unauthorized.

NCSoft is a registered participant of the VeRO Program. http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/vero-aboutme.html
If you click on the NCSoft link on the VeRO Program page you will go to the About Me page. Located at the very bottom of the page you will read the following:

Quote:

About Sales of Guild Wars Boxes, Key Codes, Accounts, and Content
NCsoft does not support or consent to the sale of Guild Wars boxes or online key codes except through official authorized distributors. Should you wish to become an authorized distributor of NCsoft products, please contact [email protected] with your company information.
The resale of Guild Wars accounts and content is strictly prohibited as per the Guild Wars End User License Agreement.

Now that you have reviewed the information, this is how I understand the VeRO program.

1. It is up to NCSoft to report a VeRO violation, otherwise eBay will do nothing.
2. NCSoft has to fill out a form called the “Notice of Claimed Infringement (NOCI)” and fax it to eBay. After they fax the initial document, eBay will provide NCSoft a electronic mechanism to submit VeRO/NOCI violations.
3. NCSoft must provide a list of “Names” that represent NCSoft. These individuals have the authority to report NOCI infringements to eBay.

Basically, it appears that it takes NCSoft resources to continually browse eBay and submit NOCI paperwork on a routine basis to eliminate violators. It may not be considered cost-effective for NCSoft to hire or take resources off task to research VeRO/NOCI infringements on eBay.

Rera · Dec 08, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

I'm going to say it again: item/gold auctions do not sell content, they sell a service. Therefore, the VeRO program doesn't apply. The program is used primarily to prevent the sale of counterfeit property, such as pirated software and media.

lyra_song · Dec 08, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

I'm going to say it again: item/gold auctions do not sell content, they sell a service. Therefore, the VeRO program doesn't apply. The program is used primarily to prevent the sale of counterfeit property, such as pirated software and media.

Well thats the excuse that any seller will give you.

It is also irrelevant. Anet gives you no rights to use their software to make money.

Look at some software used directly to make money.

Adobe Photoshop: Theres a Professional and an Educational version. Both versions are functionally identical. However, they are LICENSED differently. The edu version is for learning and non-professional use. The Pro version is for full studio use and commercial use.

You cant compare gold harvesting/item selling to something like that. Anet's software isnt licensed for that use.

You can't sell "time spent making gold" because that time you spent is also BANDWIDTH that belongs to Anet.

Riotgear · Dec 08, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

I need to dig through eBay's policies, last I knew they don't allow it, making THEM the ones to report this stuff to.

Quote:

item/gold auctions do not sell content, they sell a service

You fell for their bullshit too? Here's a quick reality check:

"In accounting, a good is a physical product capable of being delivered to a purchaser and involves the transfer of ownership from seller to customer."

They are selling a good. Not a service. The very notion that they're selling a service is absurd. If you go to the grocery store, are you paying for the service of an apple being pulled off of the tree, waxed, bagged, delivered, and stocked? Well, yeah, sort of, but in reality, YOU ARE PAYING FOR THE APPLE!!

The only way you ever pay for a service is either by agreeing to pay in advance, or paying for it in advance. Otherwise, especially when there is an exchange of product involved, you are paying for a GOOD. Please name ONE case where this is not true.

Just because some idiot can post a legal disclaimer on something doesn't make it true. Warez sites try doing this all the time by claiming you're violating their rights if you're entering and are a member of law enforcement. Gold sellers are just trying to cover their ass. There is no legal merit whatsoever to their claims.

Rera · Dec 08, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

It's not irrelevant, because that's what makes the distinction between a violation of the EULA (resulting in a ban) and a violation of the law (resulting in legal action).

Several people argue that gold selling is illegal because they are selling something they don't own. For this argument to hold water, giving gold away must also be illegal. Since when could you legally give away things you didn't own?

It appears to me that the sole thing that Anet has control over in this case is access to their servers - that's what we all paid for. EULA violations are grounds on which this access can be revoked. It doesn't seem like Anet can actually do anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

"In accounting, a good is a physical product capable of being delivered to a purchaser and involves the transfer of ownership from seller to customer."

They are selling a good. Not a service. The very notion that they're selling a service is absurd. If you go to the grocery store, are you paying for the service of an apple being pulled off of the tree, waxed, bagged, delivered, and stocked? Well, yeah, sort of, but in reality, YOU ARE PAYING FOR THE APPLE!!

There is no physical product, and there is no transfer of ownership. You don't actually own anything on Anet's servers - Anet owns it. If you actually owned your character and all of the associated items and gold, you could legally prevent Anet from doing anything to them without your consent. But you can't. If Anet decides to wipe all of their servers tomorrow, they are perfectly entitled to do so. You don't own any of the content.

Your analogy to the apple is incorrect. When you buy the apple, you actually own it. There is a transfer of physical goods. You can do whatever you want to that apple, because it belongs to you.

Chief · Dec 08, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

I'm going to say it again: item/gold auctions do not sell content, they sell a service. Therefore, the VeRO program doesn't apply. The program is used primarily to prevent the sale of counterfeit property, such as pirated software and media.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=86

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray, 10-27-2006 at 2:00PM

Talking about buying gold? Come on, you guys have read the User Agreement, you know that selling or buying gold is going to result in an account termination when it's discovered. (And it's discovered literally every day.) Just say "No" to gold purchases!)

Rera · Dec 08, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Chief, you're still missing the point.

Gold auctions on ebay are clearly in violation of the EULA. The question here is whether eBay or those people posting the auctions have any legal liability.

You'll notice Gaile doesn't say, "result in possible legal action". As I said, the most Anet can do is revoke your privilege to access their servers, because that's the only thing they legally control. Their EULA gives them grounds to revoke services that you paid for, but that's about the extent of its power.

lyra_song · Dec 08, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

I would consider selling gold on eBay on par with using software illegally.

However its up to the courts.

Theres never been a real EULA trial to compare really.

At the same note, if it DID upheld in court, is it cost effective to do that?

Darkobra · Dec 08, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Yes i think you should dumb it down to your own level

Ebay did not sign the EULA so whilst you can be banned, i dont think EBAY are quite breaking the law, which was the point.

Sock puppets time! No, Ebay aren't breaking the law. But they CAN stop the gold being sold when they come across it, as they do with many other games. MY point was that there was still a legal side involved as the player attempting to sell the gold DID sign it.

makosi · Dec 08, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

I think a gold-buying warning should be displayed at the log-in announcements beside the "Third-Party Programs" warning message. It would cut this problem drastically by clarifying Anet's standing on buying virtual items and educate those who skipped the EULA. A light threat never harmed anyone.